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mommy
04-29-2013, 08:18 AM
I received the new score from the DOE this morning. My child's score has remained the same but the normalized scores (SAI & NAI) have changed and have gone down a little. This makes no sense to me. AT ALL.
Is there a way to find the actual table where the raw scores are normalized? There must be a table somewhere.
The DOE has published only the table where you find the final percentile based on the normalized scores.

Where is the table to go FROM RAW SCORES TO NORMALIZED SCORES????

Thank you!!

Enlightened
04-29-2013, 08:19 AM
Here are the new conversion tables:

If your Child is born in 2004/2005:
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EC1D9992-89F8-43FF-8BFC-9191DFF93F0C/0/GiftedandTalentedScoreConversionTables_2004or2005. pdf

If your Child is born in 2006:
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/E21537F5-95B6-4BD4-92C5-9B9031D0B740/0/GiftedandTalentedScoreConversionTables_2006.pdf

If your Child is born in 2007/2008:
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/6C5EDA7D-2F8E-49BE-B7C0-34F4F0B9EFB3/0/GiftedandTalentedScoreConversionTables_2007or2008. pdf


The whole thing is explained here:
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/6CA3B9DE-55B4-4E06-A334-59F18A8E9A7F/0/NYCGiftedandTalentedScoreReportFAQforParents_413.p df

mommy
04-29-2013, 08:35 AM
This is not what I'm looking for. These tables calculate the final score based on the normalized scores. I have these tables.
What I need is the table(s) that go from RAW SCORES to NORMALIZED SCORES

Ex. If my child responded correctly to 20 out of 30 questions on the Verbal and 31 out of 48 in the Non-Verbal then HOW DO I GO FROM THESE NUMBERS to the Normalized scores (that are in the 3rd column in the Score Report)?

31 out of 48 in the Verbal equals to a 131 score (again, third column). How do I obtain that number?

EinBrooklyn
04-29-2013, 08:35 AM
I don't think there's a table for converting raw scores to normalized scores available since it would depend on the child's age. Those tables are likely available to Pearson only.

mommy
04-29-2013, 08:43 AM
But that's just not right. My child's final percentile has remained the same but the normalized scores resulting in the third column have gone down (with the number of correct answers remaining the same as well). I want to look into this. Also, it might be suspicious to me because my child is a December baby so, if anything, the age should have given her points, not take them off her score...

Enlightened
04-29-2013, 08:55 AM
I'm all for more transparency in this process. I would think that there should be some sort of oversight/auditing recourse available to the public, especially when they start running the placement lottery

nycparent
04-29-2013, 10:16 AM
I believe the grouping by age is based on how old the child is on test date.
Say the child is born on Feb 1st, taking the test on Jan 31 will put the child in the group of (4 years 9 months - 5 years 0 months)
taking the test on Feb 2nd will put the child in the group of (5 years 0 months - 5 years 3 months)

luchamos
04-29-2013, 11:25 AM
Mommy -- I'm seeing what you're seeing. the NAIs changed (and the DOE updated the memo on Friday to say use the NEW NAIs) and the percentiles changed. And on top of that, my son has two NAIs producing 90th percentile and the overall score is 92. I'm not getting this math at all.

lkmen
04-29-2013, 01:25 PM
Did the DOE said if the revised score came out higher, a child's percentile would be adjusted upward; however, if the revised score ended up lower, then the prior percentile would remain the same? I had that impresson...

SNL2013
05-01-2013, 09:00 AM
Well, supposedly the new calculations have been triple checked by Pearson and they have been forced to hire independent auditors to confirm those scores. So it's very unlikely that a computational error was made, if any disagreement exists it would be on how the DOE endeavored to score these tests but at this point I have little doubt the actual calculations were properly made as intended

I dont believe that. i think Pearson screwed up again. Or DOE is in collusion to ensure "political correctness" has made more people have better scores. Maybe normalization was done with national data or it was stretched to include more into 90 bucket. I hope people suing for transparency make details available to all

Enlightened
05-01-2013, 09:21 AM
I dont believe that. i think Pearson screwed up again. Or DOE is in collusion to ensure "political correctness" has made more people have better scores. Maybe normalization was done with national data or it was stretched to include more into 90 bucket. I hope people suing for transparency make details available to all

Yep, it would not surprise me at all if more errors were later found. But here is what they said:

"To ensure the accuracy of their calculations, the DOE has required that Pearson conduct additional quality assurance checks and confirm that the results are correct. The DOE has also calculated the results to confirm that Pearson’s results are accurate. Families should have confidence that the new information is correct."
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/777C9B02-DF42-43A8-9BCF-B92F6B4C2F3A/0/NYCGiftedandTalentedScoreErrorFAQ_422.pdf

"After consulting with the Department of Education, Pearson reviewed every part of the assessment and scoring process—from the raw score all the way to the overall percentile ranks. Several teams of research scientists within Pearson reviewed this entire recalculation process. In addition, quality engineers were brought in to certify the processes followed and to carry out additional, independent quality control checks."
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8DA2E775-96EA-4723-A76C-F29A0AB8066A/0/NYCGiftedandTalentedLetterfromPearsontoFamilies_41 3.pdf


I agree that there should be transparency and that all the source data needs to be released. But that being said, if any errors are found I can't conceive of it possibly allowing more into higher percentiles. It would probably reduce many children's scores but after reading the Pearson & DOE statements, it's pretty clear that they would never allow kids to suddenly be disqualified because of their error.

Like it or not every kid that now qualifies will continue to qualify regardless of any new errors that surface.

dragonfly
05-01-2013, 12:14 PM
I called the DOE last week to find out how to convert a raw score to a normalized standard score. I like their call center staff -- kind and helpful -- but they have no idea how the scoring is done, so they opened a ticket for me and said that someone from G&T would call me back. So far, I've heard nothing. Pearson's call center told me that Pearson doesn't know how the test was scored (haha!), and told me to call the DOE. On Monday, I called Pearson again, and was told that the DOE might allow them to release more scoring information later, after all of the revised results had been mailed.

My issue is this: in one of the DOE's pdf files explaining the scoring, there's an illustrative sample. The four year old in the sample got fewer questions right than my kid did, but has a higher normalized score, and is in a higher percentile. The normalized score takes age into account, but I don't know how old the kid in the sample was supposed to be, or if that sample is even realistic, so I'd like to do the math myself.

And yes, I saw the bit about how the revised scores are accurate, but frankly, I can't trust the DOE any more than I can trust Pearson. Pearson was hired to score the test, but the fact that no one at the DOE bothered to verify Pearson's work before sending out reports is RIDICULOUS. Their FAQ full of excuses made me cringe. Were results verified in previous years, or were they all bogus, too? Ugh.

nycparent
05-01-2013, 12:23 PM
I had 2 tickets opened by the friendly staff over the phone. First ticket opened on a Monday and call was received on Friday. Second ticket opened on the following Monday and I received an email on Thursday. Don't put your hopes too high thinking they really have an answer for you. The chances are the parents on this forum have better knowledge (from guessing) on the subject than the DOE experts.
I really think DOE is keeping things vague on purpose.

Stuy81
05-01-2013, 12:57 PM
Yep, it would not surprise me at all if more errors were later found. But here is what they said:

"To ensure the accuracy of their calculations, the DOE has required that Pearson conduct additional quality assurance checks and confirm that the results are correct. The DOE has also calculated the results to confirm that Pearson’s results are accurate. Families should have confidence that the new information is correct."
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/777C9B02-DF42-43A8-9BCF-B92F6B4C2F3A/0/NYCGiftedandTalentedScoreErrorFAQ_422.pdf

"After consulting with the Department of Education, Pearson reviewed every part of the assessment and scoring process—from the raw score all the way to the overall percentile ranks. Several teams of research scientists within Pearson reviewed this entire recalculation process. In addition, quality engineers were brought in to certify the processes followed and to carry out additional, independent quality control checks."
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8DA2E775-96EA-4723-A76C-F29A0AB8066A/0/NYCGiftedandTalentedLetterfromPearsontoFamilies_41 3.pdf


I agree that there should be transparency and that all the source data needs to be released. But that being said, if any errors are found I can't conceive of it possibly allowing more into higher percentiles. It would probably reduce many children's scores but after reading the Pearson & DOE statements, it's pretty clear that they would never allow kids to suddenly be disqualified because of their error.

Like it or not every kid that now qualifies will continue to qualify regardless of any new errors that surface.

To make things simple, why not make everyone who registered for the exam, no matter what the score, eligible for G&T? Problem solved.. The only catch is because so many children scored 98 and 99, no one scoring 97 and under is guaranteed a seat unless the sibling policy applies.

Stuy81
05-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Bureaucracy at its worst. IMO the public school system should be privatized and the teacher's unions disbanded. But that's just me

I've had the same idea for as long as I can remember. But we'll be the first to get lynched by card-carrying union members and/or sympathizers.

froopydoopy
05-06-2013, 01:57 PM
Mommy -- I'm seeing what you're seeing. the NAIs changed (and the DOE updated the memo on Friday to say use the NEW NAIs) and the percentiles changed. And on top of that, my son has two NAIs producing 90th percentile and the overall score is 92. I'm not getting this math at all.

Nothing wrong with that. It just means that it's unusual for people to score at least 90th percentile in both halves of the test. Here's another example -- if I score 98th percentile in Math on my SATs and 95th percentile in Verbal, I might be 99th percentile overall because so few people score well on both.

That being said, the fact that the scoring is so opaque is really disheartening. I wonder how the initial parent figured it out. I strongly suspect that the scores have been incorrectly calculated going back years. And that thousands and thousands of children have been incorrectly denied because of it.